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Episode 8

In this podcast episode, Dr. Nicole Ineese-Nash shares her insights on supporting the well-being and resilience of Indigenous children and youth exposed to violence through connections to the land, culture, and community.

Nicole discusses the impacts of colonial trauma on Indigenous children and youth, particularly in relation to experiences of intimate partner violence in the home and the disruption of family structures. She highlights how Indigenous communities must navigate healing from colonial trauma in the context of increased social awareness of the harms and pain they have experienced.

Lastly, Nicole shares the importance of supporting Indigenous children and youth to find a sense of rootedness in who they are and creating safe and trauma-informed spaces that can connect them to their lands, territories, communities, nations, and clans.

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Guest

Dr. Nicole Ineese-Nash is an Indigenous researcher, educator, and community worker with over 10 years of experience working with Indigenous children, youth, and communities. Born and raised in Toronto, Nicole is a member of Constance Lake First Nation in Treaty 9 territory and holds relation to the lands, waters, and people along the English and Kabikagomi Rivers. With a PhD in Social Justice Education and a Master’s in Early Childhood studies, she is passionate about supporting Indigenous self-determination and cultural resurgence, particularly in the context of childhood and youth. Nicole’s various research and practice interests reflect her lived experience as an Indigenous person on a path of cultural reconnection and learning. As an Assistant Professor cross-appointed between the schools of Early Childhood Studies and Child and Youth Care at Toronto Metropolitan University, Nicole leads innovative community-based research on the topics of Indigenous disability, early learning, land-based education and youth mental health. Her research with Indigenous young people spurred the foundation of her national charitable organization, Finding Our Power Together, which offers mental health coaching, group psychoeducation, and cultural healing to Indigenous youth across Canada. Nicole’s skills in community-based research, social justice education, and Indigenous cultural practices have allowed her to work with Indigenous communities both in and out of the academy, informing her research, writing, teaching and practice.

Host

Dr. Linda Baker is a Psychologist, Assistant Professor – Standing Appointment, and the former Learning Director of the Centre for Research & Education on Violence Against Women & Children (CREVAWC) at Western University. During her time with CREVAWC, Dr. Baker led the Learning Network and the Knowledge Hub. The Learning Network translates knowledge on the continuum of gender-based violence and the Knowledge Hub facilitates a trauma- and violence-informed community of practice with Canadian researchers and practitioners conducting innovative intervention research. She has over 25 years of experience in the mental health and justice systems, working with and learning from children, youth and families dealing with experiences of violence and trauma. Her direct service experience inspires and informs her research and commitment to knowledge translation through resource development and publications, knowledge exchange activities, and workshop presentations. Dr. Baker has co-authored numerous publications/resources related to intimate partner violence exposed children and families, including Walk Proud, Dance Proud: Footprints on a Healing Journey; Helping Children Thrive: Supporting Woman Abuse Survivors as Mothers; and Helping an Abused Woman: 101 things to Know, Say and Do. Her most recent work focuses on the application of intersectionality to research with and services for children exposed to IPV and the evaluation of IPV training programs. Prior to her current roles, Dr. Baker was the Director of the Centre for Children and Families in the Justice System (London Family Court Clinic). She participates regularly on faculty teams delivering Domestic Violence Institutes throughout the United States for the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges and Futures Without Violence.

Transcript

00:00:16:15 – Linda

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the podcast Little Eyes, Little Ears: Centering Children and Youth in Gender-Based Violence Work. This podcast is from the Learning Network at the Centre for Research and Education on Violence Against Women and Children at Western University. The purpose of this podcast is to enhance work to support children and youth in contexts of intimate partner violence. 

00:00:47:01 - Linda

I'm Dr. Linda Baker and I'm pleased to host today's episode with our guest, Nicole Ineese-Nash. Nicole Ineese-Nash is an Indigenous researcher, educator, and community worker with over ten years of experience working with Indigenous youth and children in communities. As an Assistant Professor, cross-appointed between the Schools of Early Childhood Studies and Child and Youth Care at Toronto Metropolitan University.

00:01:19:14 - Linda

Nicole leads innovative, community-based research on topics of Indigenous disability, early learning, land-based education and youth mental health. Her research with Indigenous peoples spurred the foundation of her national charitable organization called Finding Our Power Together, which offers mental health coaching, group psychoeducation, and cultural healing to Indigenous youth across Canada. Nicole, thank you so much for being here with us today.

00:01:59:13 - Nicole

Miigwetch. Thank you so much, Linda. Happy to be here.

00:02:03:13 - Linda

That's great. I wondered if, just to start us off, you wanted to share a little more about yourself and your work in your own words.

00:02:13:01 – Nicole

Sure. I'd be happy to. I'd like to introduce myself in my traditional language. and in doing so, really centering the relationships that I hold to my community, to my nation, and to my traditional territories.   

00:02:29:17 – Nicole

Nanaboozhoo. Songe Winishe Wabigwanikwe nindizhinikaaz. Mamawmattawa minwa Tkaronto nindonjibaa. Mukwa nindodem. Anishinaabekwe nindow.

So, I just introduced myself using my spirit name. And that's the name that spirit knows me by. That's the name that I carry in my physical vessel, in my spirit. And that name is Strong, Beautiful Wildflower Woman.

00:02:53:16 - Nicole

I'm an Anishinaabe person. I come from the place where the three rivers meet. Also known as Mammamattawa, in Treaty 9 territory in Northern Ontario. And I'm a member of Constance Lake First Nation. As you noted, I'm an Assistant Professor at Toronto Metropolitan University in the School of Early Childhood Studies and Child Care. And my work is deeply rooted in my own lived experience as an Indigenous person.

00:03:21:19 – Nicole

I was born and raised in Tkaronto, Toronto, and call Toronto home, even though my family comes from Northern Ontario. So, I've had the privilege to be able to learn and work and relate to the places, in this southern region, as well as all of the places that my ancestors have related to as well. Yeah, so I'm really happy to be here and to be on this journey of supporting our young people, supporting our communities, and also educating others about how to work, alongside us in partnership. 

00:03:59:15 – Linda

Thank you. Nicole. I wondered, could you tell us just a little bit about your foundation too, your charitable organization?

00:04:07:25 – Nicole

Sure. So as a young person myself, I had been working in several research projects, and in one in particular, I was working with a faculty member at Toronto Metropolitan, Judy Finley, who had been working in northern communities for 20 to 30 years.

And she brought me to a community called the Menominee First Nation, which is also in Treaty 9 territory, and it's a small, remote First Nation community in Northern Ontario, just north of Thunder Bay. And it's a fly in community, so, there are no roads to access that community. And we'd been working on a research project and the project was about community wellness. And we had been talking to all of the community members about what would it mean to be well in that community, and what would that look like in the short, medium, and long term? And we really wanted to get young people to be a part of this project. And so, we started to, talk to the young people about what wellness meant to them.

00:05:08:19 – Nicole

And at the time, they had been experiencing many suicides in their community, which was uncommon in that community and particularly for youth. There were many suicides of young people at that time. And so, they said, yeah, we can answer these questions. But for us, wellness means that our young people are thriving and that they're not dying by suicide.

00:05:30:20 - Nicole

And so ultimately, that was a moment for us as a team to kind of shift our perspective in relation to the research we were doing. We continued to do the research and we completed the work that we were doing, but we also saw a need to really support the youth on the ground who were, you know, really struggling with this suicide epidemic.

00:05:50:22 – Nicole

And so, we asked them what would be useful for them in that moment. And they said that they really wanted to raise awareness of the issues of suicide and mental health in their community, and they wanted to do so by creating kind of a public service announcement, documentary style video. So, we continued to work with this group of youth, who eventually became a youth council in their community to create this video.

00:06:16:10 – Nicole

And when we talked about what would this video be called, what would this movement be called? They wanted to call it Finding Our Power Together. So, we completed the video. We then brought that video to a fundraising event that we organized in Toronto at the university, where we invited many folks to attend and share their experiences also with youth suicide.

00:06:38:08 – Nicole

And so, it was really great because we were able to connect some of those youth from even Namik to use in Toronto and other surrounding communities as well. And we were able to raise $10,000 for that community and built a youth elder teepee for them to be able to start to kind of heal, these issues in their community.

00:06:56:24 -Nicole

And then we've continued to work with Anomic. And when I became an assistant professor at TMU, one of the first projects that I ensured that I wanted to continue was working with this particular community. And we started going back to that community in February of 2020, and we said, hey, what do we want to do with this idea of funding a power together?

00:07:16:14 - Nicole

And they really wanted to grow it. They wanted us to go to different communities. They wanted us to have a national scope. And then the pandemic happened. And so, we saw a need to kind of mobilize on the ground support again. So, with their permission and blessing, we, established a national nonprofit called Fighting Our Power Together to kind of continue the work that we had started in that community, but then reach a national scope.

00:07:43:03 – Nicole

So now, we offer a variety of mental health services and programs to Indigenous children and youth in communities across Canada. We have psychoeducation programs. So, teaching young people about mental health and how to cope with mental health challenges. We offer individual counseling to youth, and then we also have a lot of leadership and capacity building initiatives. So really going back to supporting that youth council, supporting the leaders in the communities who are actually doing that work.

00:08:13:14 - Nicole

And in addition, we always take an Indigenous specific lens. So, we do a lot of land-based healing programs and camps to ultimately support young people to thrive, learn who they are and become rooted in their cultures and lifeways.

00:08:28:05 - Linda

Sounds very exciting. And it's particularly encouraging to hear how much it's led by youth, how much it's driven by youth, actually, right from the get-go, so thank you for sharing more about that with us all.

 And it's certainly children and youth that we're talking about today. And, many of our listeners are quite familiar with intimate partner violence but we wanted to start by looking more at, colonial trauma and how that impacts experiences of intimate partner violence in the home for Indigenous children and youth.

00:09:16:15 – Nicole

Yeah, I would say it definitely has a lot of impacts. I think for many Indigenous communities, you know, we're in a state of healing right now from the colonial traumas that we've had to experience both historic and contemporary. And I think that the family structure has really been impacted by colonialism and that is something that we as a, as communities, are still kind of working through.

00:09:48:09 – Nicole

I think it's difficult for Indigenous communities because we are in a time where a lot of our traumas are kind of open to the public, right? Like we are healing from really devastating genocidal acts in front of everybody. And so, it's a difficult time because I think a lot of Indigenous communities are really hoping to, to heal, to reinstate our traditional ways of doing things, but are having to do so in the context of, you know, increased social awareness, you know, and increased social connectedness.

00:10:28:08 -Nicole

And so, a lot of the ways that we need to heal are kind of being put on display. I think for many, for many communities, intimate partner violence is something that is occurring, and is a direct result of the broken family structure that has resulted from colonial policies. Right. So, I think the residential school legacy, the taking of children from their homes has really eroded the traditional family structure that Indigenous communities would have.

00:11:03:17 – Nicole

And obviously has resulted in a ton of negative impacts that is then perpetuating violence within the home. So, I think that violence we experience within our communities, on the individual level is really a result of the collective trauma and violence that we've experienced as a community.

00:11:22:47 – Linda

Could you talk a little bit more about, it just really shone a light on that for me. Like healing is difficult for all of us, no matter what we're healing from. But as you say, to do it in that public arena, to do it in terms of, such non-private way in some respects. Could you talk a little bit more about that, Nicole?

00:11:55:20 – Nicole

Yeah. I mean I think for, for most communities, they've not had to do this type of healing in, in such a public forum. And what I mean by that is that, you know, since the TRC Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action, since that time in 2015 where those reports started to come out, where public awareness started to grow, there has been an increase in awareness of Indigenous peoples, their struggles, their experiences and also their mistakes. 

00:12:29:16 - Nicole

And, you know, the tribulations that they face and also, you know, there's such a, there's a bit of a magnifying glass, I think, on Indigenous communities at this time where people are looking to them for direction, for them to lead things, for them to essentially absolve settler guilt for colonialism. And yet, we are still very much fresh in terms of experiencing these harms.

00:12:58:11 - Nicole

The last residential school closed in the mid-1990s. The last day school was going on into the early 2000s. We are still being, you know, we are still having the impacts of the child welfare system in our communities. We are still facing systemic harms. We are still being disproportionately underfunded for basic, you know, the basic requirements for a good life.

00:13:29:01 - Nicole

And so, I think there's this strange dynamic that is happening where, you know, the general public and particularly in Canada, has becoming increasingly aware of Indigenous issues and struggles and at the same time is expecting Indigenous communities to get over it or to be a part of the solution, which many Indigenous peoples are. But a lot of us are still really very much in the post- traumatic impact of it all.

00:14:01:03 - Nicole

And so, I think because we have a lot more of a social awareness, there's increased connection through social media. There is this kind of public way in which Indigenous peoples are almost having to perform, in a particular dynamic that has been deemed to be acceptable by settler society. But I think we need the grace to be able to actually spend time healing, spend time doing the work within our communities to, you know, bring back our cultures, bring back our ways of life and ultimately become strong nations in our own right before we then are able to participate in these kinds of other reconciliation agendas.

00:14:45:50 - Linda

Would you say, in terms of the experience that you're describing and what's going on. How does it particularly play out for children, would you say, children and youth?

00:15:03:22 – Nicole

Well, I think there are a number of ways that children today are still being very much impacted by colonial harm. I know from my own experience that my parents were very much impacted by colonial policy, and I would argue that every Indigenous person today is still impacted by those colonial policies. So, there's many generational ways in which this manifests.

00:15:36:08 - Nicole

And so, for instance, my, you know, my grandparents’ generation, most of those people went to residential school. If they didn't go to residential school, they went to day school, which a lot of people don't talk about, which was, you know, just as horrific in some cases as residential schools. The only difference was it was in your community and you go home at night.

00:16:02:03 - Nicole

But the disruption in those schools really stripping away of identity, the punishing of Indigeneity and essentially telling an entire generation of children that they were unworthy unless they performed in a particular way, obviously has trickles of impact. And so, within my own family, you know, that generation, a lot of them didn't learn how to parent, a lot of them didn't learn how to raise their children.

00:16:32:08 – Nicole

They didn't learn their culture. They didn't learn those traditional teachings about being a part of a community because they were constantly being put into these other contexts. And so, my grandmother didn't necessarily go to residential school, but she was actually, a part of the tuberculosis piece. And so, she spent much, much of her childhood in the hospital.

00:16:59:15 – Nicole

And so, no matter where they went, those children were constantly being invalidated and told that they were not good enough. And as a result, my grandmother was not a very nice person. She then had ten children and, you know, did not necessarily know how to parent to those children. That then goes on to the subsequent generation, where then there's kind of imparted trauma as a result.

00:17:27:24 – Nicole

And so, I think today, many children are still being a part of that kind of intergenerational trauma, even when I myself am a parent and I try very hard and I have a degree in early childhood. And so, I think I maybe know some stuff in terms of how to parent. But it's not easy.

00:17:48:24 – Nicole

And those kinds of traumatic events still come up. And I think there's also a lot of anxiety with being a parent as an Indigenous person. Because of those experiences, I am constantly afraid my children are going to be taken away. I am constantly afraid, you know, that people are going to judge me or you know that I'm not doing well enough as a parent because I think that that kind of perpetuation of the family unit wasn't that strong for my own upbringing.

00:18:19:16 – Nicole

And so, I think that's what I kind of mean is that we're in this process of reclaiming who we are, learning how to heal from this, but it's so very, very fresh. and so I think that leads to, you know, all sorts of things and ultimately, we are really just trying to ensure that our kids are safe, that they're healthy, that they know that they're loved, while we're also trying to work through our own stuff.

00:18:44:53 – Linda

It's so powerful, what you’re saying, Nicole, we know there's not, we don't go to school or whatever to learn to be a parent. We learn through our home and through our contact with our own parents. And when that is stolen from us in the way that it was through colonial acts and continues to be, as you say, then it leaves a powerful impact.

Do you worry sometimes or, in terms of, if it becomes too much about the trauma, that there's so much more to Indigenous children and youth and families and communities then the trauma. And yet the focus, as you said, from the outside, it's sort of two things. One is focus on the trauma in a big way or refusing to believe that trauma really shouldn't impact anymore. Do you worry about a narrative that, is promoting resilience and not being, overshadowed completely by the trauma?

00:19:58:20 - Nicole

I wouldn't say I'm worried. I think that Indigenous communities are working very hard at really promoting an Indigenous contemporary experience and culture. And so sometimes I get worried in relation to reconciliation and this kind of settler oversight, where I was talking about earlier, there's this kind of constant desire to have Indigenous people be at the table, have Indigenous people create the solutions for the systems that they've suffered.

00:20:36:14 - Nicole

And I think that's all well and good. But I also think that doing all of this reconciliation work sometimes takes away from our ability to be doing the resurgence work that is necessary within our communities. And so, I see some beautiful examples of how Indigenous communities are really not only trying to heal from colonial harms, but actually to strive for something even greater to, you know, be practicing our cultures in beautiful, beautiful ways.

00:21:08:09 - Nicole

The teachings that we have about children and the caring of children and the ways that we care for one another, I believe we are experts in relationships and in particular, how we relate to others in ways that are authentic, meaningful, mutual. And I believe that all of those teachings are so integral to who we are. And we're kind of in this process of remembering that and reinstating that and really working towards that resurgent future that we are wanting.

00:21:38:08 - Nicole

So, I wouldn't say that I'm worried. I would say that I'm hopeful because many Indigenous communities are working towards what they actually desire. And I think that's so important. It's not only how do we make up a loss, but how do we actually move forward in a way, recognizing the challenges, recognizing the barriers, recognizing the pain, but actually striving towards what we actually truly want in our communities and so I think that's a really beautiful thing.

00:22:08:16 - Linda

Thank you for sharing that with us. So, you've begun, you're talking about it already. And we wanted to talk with you about, your thoughts about supporting the healing of Indigenous children and youth and you've certainly talked about that and the importance of family and community, and that youth situated within, community. Is there anything else you would want to draw our attention to in terms of, the healing of children and youth?

00:22:43:20 – Nicole

I think particularly for children and youth, they are in a process of healing things that have happened prior to their own lifetime. Right. We're talking about intergenerational trauma, but also that intergenerational trauma, like I said earlier, actually tends to correlate with first hand trauma. So, if you've experienced intergenerational trauma, you're actually more likely to experience trauma or traumatic events within your own lifetimes.

00:23:12:03 – Nicole

So, I think there's a few things. One is that there are, in fact, experiences that Indigenous children and youth are having to experience that they shouldn't have to do. And that really is putting the healing aspect on adults, the parents, to ensure that we are doing our own healing work, to ensure we're not passing these kinds of legacies on to our children. In terms of how we can support children and youth to heal both from that first hand trauma as well as that intergenerational aspect, I really think it's important that we adopt, a really holistic and culturally grounded approach and ultimately provide safer spaces, these landing spaces for Indigenous young people to engage in that process of healing that we don't shy away from the conversation, but that we allow for these communities to thrive.

In my work with Finding Our Power Together, we have heard a lot from young people about the context in which they feel healing can happen and for many of them, they talk about the need to be rooted in who they are.

00:24:21:17 - Nicole

And that's the part that colonialism has really tried to take away from Indigenous people, is that rootedness. We as Indigenous people are really rooted in our places, our lands, our territories, our communities, our nations, our clans. And so at Finding Our Power Together, we are trying really hard to provide give that back to the young people, give them their traditional names, give them their colors, give them their clans, help them learn language, help them participate in ceremony, bring them to sweat lodge. All of these things, are just small pieces of someone trying to reroot themselves in who they are.

00:25:01:16 – Nicole

And it doesn't matter if you're in your traditional territory. It doesn't matter if you're, you know, speaking your traditional language. It's recognizing what it means to be an Indigenous person today and to find that rootedness in who they are. That rootedness allows for people to really connect to life and to build and cultivate a life worth living through their understandings of themselves, their history, and also what they desire into their future.

00:25:30:04 – Nicole

So, I think in terms of the supporting the healing of children and youth, I think we need to create safer spaces, really taking a trauma-informed approach in all of the spaces that we are working with young people. And I think that so many of our young people today are experiencing a myriad of traumatic events, you know, whether they're Indigenous or not.

00:25:51:23 - Nicole

And so that trauma-informed lens, I think, can be really helpful in terms of shaping our practices to not further the damage. And then ultimately allowing the space for Indigenous peoples to have their own ways of doing things. There are some things that I think just need to happen within Indigenous community that can't really be replicated outside of it.

And so I think it's about ensuring that kind of the mainstream services or spaces where young people are, are informed, are safer spaces, and then also supporting them to connect to cultural places and communities.

00:26:32:07 – Linda

Do you have any thoughts for mainstream services? In terms of how to do a better job in terms of, partnering and, and not continuing in a way, quite explicitly, but not and maybe intentionally, but it doesn't matter whether it's intentional or not. Continuing to remove that, from community, and family.

00:27:01:01 -Nicole

I don't know that the onus is on mainstream services. I think this is a policy-based question, because particularly for Indigenous communities who are on reserves, there is not a desire to have those communities be viable places.

And what I mean by that is that the entire reserve system has been developed as a temporary solution that ultimately tries to get people to amalgamate into urban contexts or into non reserve contexts. The reserve system was never meant to be a permanent solution. And yet here we are continuing to live on reserve, continuing to try to hold on to what little resources we have.

00:27:52:09 – Nicole

However, many reserves are not resourced adequately to function like a city or a town. And so, we have basically outsourced all of these essential services, particularly in far remote, northern communities. For instance, you know, young people have to travel out for high school. They have to travel out for mental health care. They have to travel out for any, medical conditions.

00:28:18:00 - Nicole

They constantly have to travel out, travel out, travel out. And that sends a message that there is no viable future where I live, that I constantly need to travel out in order to access the basic necessities of care. And so, I think that's the piece that I think a lot of people don't understand is that the on reserve system is set up for Indigenous people to fail, but we are persisting anyway, and we are building our own ways of navigating that.

00:28:53:10 - Nicole

And we are building our own schools and our own systems and our own, you know, ways of supporting each other. But we're doing so with such limited resources. We are doing so with chronic underfunding, and we're doing so again in the midst of also trying to heal. And so, I think what you're talking about really highlights the necessity for meaningful engagement and meaningful partnership.

00:29:21:21 - Nicole

And what that looks like is really dependent on the people at the table. It's a relationship that needs to be cultivated. But ultimately, I think there's, for most people who are, you know, settlers who maybe are trying to do their own part with reconciliation, and it can become very difficult to know what to do. And I think a lot of the work that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has been doing has been very helpful in to illustrate the ways that governments need to change, and I think that's the piece that many settlers can be working on is in challenging your own government, holding your government accountable for what it has done and not done in relation to this work.

00:30:02:13 – Nicole

And then building within your own system so, you know, regardless of what system you are within, there are always ways to partner with Indigenous organizations, Indigenous communities, etc. to leverage the resources you do have and support Indigenous communities in the process, regardless of if you have any Indigenous clients. I believe that that needs to be a real part of the way that we are engaging within the social service sector.

00:30:33:21 – Linda

Nicole, in 20 years, what would you like to see change in terms of, support for Indigenous children and youth exposed to violence?

00:30:47:22 – Nicole

Oh, I don't know a lot of things. I mean, in 20 years, I hope that there is no violence. I hope that that's not a thing that we're still talking about. But I do think that there needs to be better systems in place for supporting Indigenous children, particularly in relation to accessing support. So, you know, ensuring that young people have support that is culturally relevant, that is offered by other Indigenous people, that is allowing them to participate in other types of support systems that would be useful. So, I think, you know, in terms of what we've been noticing is that, yeah, counseling is great.

Counseling can be really helpful. But not everybody actually wants counseling and in particular, they don't necessarily want mainstream counseling. They want counseling that's informed by their lived experience as Indigenous peoples and their cultures, and to use that as a framework for learning and self-discovery, but that they also want to be part of networks and communities and connected to something broader than their own individual experience.

00:31:58:14 - Nicole

And so I think, you know, for us as a mental health organization, we're looking at mental health, but mental health is related to all the various aspects of wellbeing as well spiritual health, emotional health, physical health, and that we need to be supporting young people to have access to myriad of supports that can help them with all aspects of that.

But ultimately that we are starting, you know, in the early years, I think, you know, in my background as an early childhood educator, like we need to be supporting that healing and that growth and that teaching about how to relate to each other well in the early years, so that translates throughout the lifespan and ultimately, hopefully creating that generational change.

00:32:43:06 - Linda

Nicole, it has been amazing to talk with you. We’re so appreciative of you making the time. I imagine that your students must just be amazed to take courses from you. You have an amazing way of communicating and to make things that are complex more readily understood. So, thank you for sharing our space with us today, and your continued research and practice with youths to support their wellbeing is truly inspiring.

00:33:22:01 – Linda

For our listeners, this episode concludes the podcast series. It has been such an honor to host this series and to have worked with the Learning Network team at the Centre. And we are so grateful to all of those who have tuned in to hear different guest speakers over the last year. And this was such an important and befitting last episode, Nicole, to have you with us, for this episode.

And so, for a full list of podcast episodes and the presenters, their biographies and, more about them, then please visit the Learning Network website and you can reach that at gbvlearningnetwork.ca. So with that, again, thank you, Nicole. And to our listeners, take care and bye for now.